there may be such a thing as too much whisky

[thene]

-the voice that says 'calmer' and means it

-the implicit meaning of past tense

-the days when I listen to this on the t (because there's nothing to explain so as a rule, i don't. seriously though what is happening to her skirt?);

ALSO social observation of the day; every so often, a stranger (or close to) comments on the fact that I don't wear a wedding ring (I hate jewellery, is the main reason, it's fucking itchy); strangers never comment on the fact that I don't wear a bra.

Comments

[1000kindsofrain.wordpress.com]

Well, in my experience, conversations that start "I notice you're not wearing a bra" generally lead to your next conversation being with the police. ;-)

Seriously, conversations about underwear are loaded and would be culturally inappropriate in many situations, including with a stranger. Whereas a conversation about a ring is a conversation about whether you're wearing red or green. There's not much to explain, except, of course, why you don't wear a bra.

[thene]

What beats me is why so many people do wear them. Obviously some women need them but even most of the ones who really don't need them feel they have to wear a bra whenever they're in public, even if they hate them and take them off the first minute they get home. No one seems to notice that I don't use them - people I've worked with for months or years have been surprised when I mention it. There are plenty of other kinds of supportive clothing, so I can only put the bra thing down to some sort of collective fetish, which I guess tends to be what motivates all forms of corsetry and weird figure-enhancing shenanigans. The weirdest part is that people simultaneously perceive bra-wearing as a symbol of modesty but when they buy bras they respond to marketing that portrays bras as figure-enhancing fetish objects.

[1000kindsofrain.wordpress.com]

Before replying, I skimmed the wikipedia article on bras. Like you, I'd assumed bras were physiologically necessary in some cases. But that doesn't appear to be true. They don't even stop breasts sagging. (Interesting fact: smoking causes your breasts to sag.) So I suspect a large part of bra wearing is down to misinformation on this front.

But women are obsessed with breasts. The best explanation I've seen is in this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/11/breast-implants-50-years), which says: [B]reasts are the biggest physical sign [women] have of difference, and perhaps, at base, that's why [breast enhancements are] so enormously popular. "It's an external symbol of a woman's gender, and [women] need and want that affirmation" So maybe a bra is gender affirmation, too. In a world where women and men dress alike, it's the one item of clothing that men don't wear. And the buying and selling of bras on the basis of their cleavage-enhancing power falls under this category. (Note that cleavage is culturally acceptable whereas nipples are not.) However I've seen soft bras advertised on the basis of comfort so not every bra is advertised as lingerie.

The modesty issue is fascinating, too. For the average, bra-wearing woman they're obscuring the areola, and probably the whole breast. I guess nipples are deemed to be arousing: if a man sees cleavage or a short skirt, then it's his job to control himself; but if he sees a nipple, then the poor dear can't help but have an erection. And a modest woman must not arouse 'teh men'. The same mindset leads to the banning of photos of breast feeding. (I have to say that bras don't always conceal nipples; but that's another conversation starter that will get a man the sack, "You're nipples are looking perky today.") The women who wear bras at work might be following this convention; businesswear tends to be more conservative.

But I guess, for most women, it will be a mixture of these points. And more importantly they do it because because every other woman does. It's just the herd mentality; a habit that was learnt young and is never questioned.

[thene]

Anecdata among bra refuseniks indicates that bras promote sagging because they prevent chest muscles from getting enough exercise. I imagine smoking prevents the same muscles from getting enough oxygen? They do conceal sagging and serve other needs (nipple concealment, stability) which (for most people) can be served as reliably and more comfortably by decent camisoles/support tops...but the one thing bras do uniquely deliver on is cleavage. As Z said, some bras ARE advertised for comfort and some people do buy them, but it's a small part of the market and it's not where the real high-end money is. Relatively few people regularly drop $75 on a comfort bra.

I'm sure you're right about the gender affirmation thing, though I'm not the best at relating to that...it's weird, I have feminine stuff I really like (floofy skirts, frills) and feminine stuff I can't stand (makeup and jewellery, absurd shoes, pencil skirts). I'm comfy in men's outerwear but feel averse to men's underwear, which feels like a pretty clear psychological gender demarcation. Eh. I feel like there is a long historical trend of 'conservative' women's dress meaning that one has to have a specific fake silhouette, which merely varies over the centuries; I think I remember learning that at the V&A.

Only female nipples are deemed to be arousing. Male nipples are neutral objects suitable for public display, in spite of them having no non-erogenous purpose! Just not at work, barring emergencies and soft drink ads.

[1000kindsofrain.wordpress.com]

"...but feel averse to men's underwear..." So the gusset turns out to be more pratical then the bra, eh? :-P

As I follow it, it's not the breast that sags but it's the skin. Just as a water balloon gets it shape from the latex, so the fat inside the breast gets it shape from the skin. And if the latex (or the skin) stretches then the water (or the breast-fat) spreads out. On that basis, I don't see extra exercise would stop sagging. Sorry. Smoking accelerates the process by destroying the protein (elastin) that keeps the skin firm. But it's basically an unavoidable part of getting old. You could try covering your breasts in antiwrinkle cream.

(It will be interesting to return in 30 years and see if the sagging you've experienced has changed your mind on bras...)

Adverts are not necessarily representative of what people buy: premium brands spends the most on advertising but we don't all buy them. Looking at catalogues I get the impressions that bras are a mixture of price, comfort, and style, with a few expensive bras thrown in for special occasions, although my annecdata is from women who admit to buying "Bridget Jones' Big knickers". (I swear I don't steer the conversation in that direction.) One of my friends used to earn extra money testing bras to see if they fit so you can blame her for ill-fitting lingerie.

On the gender demarcation front, it occurs to me that when J-Lo was fashionable there was a craze for padded knickers amongst women.

You're right about male nipples. (A completelty different conversation ended up at male nipples, and gave me this link (http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/advice/men-nipples-sensitive)) But no (God-fearing) man is EVER going to get aroused looking at another man's nipples, so everything is fine. Actually, if eroticism was the sole criteria then pictures of breast feeding would be fine. And the wikipedia article on bras said that boys were banned from running topless in Florida.

[(Anonymous)]

From my perspective it's nothing to do with modesty and covering, more because my breasts get so painful when I don't wear one. They swing around all over the place and it's a pain in the neck, or slightly lower down. For breasts that are prone to stay in the same place, sure, a bra isn't necessary. I don't even notice the fetishising marketing anymore - to me a bra is solely utilitarian. (Corsets, not so.)

I spent the weekend at a staff meeting for Worldcon. This is getting scary. What do Americans really need to know most about residing in the UK but won't think they know till they realise they don't know it?

~Z

[thene]

Oh gosh, I have no idea. I should try asking American people who have been to the UK. Um, that sales tax is included in the price tag? That 'damn' and 'hell' are not real swearwords? That coins are real money and you need them to get at shopping trolleys? None of these things seem particularly vital. /clueless

[1000kindsofrain.wordpress.com]

@anonymous. I am not a Doctor, but that sounds muscle related (if you suddenly start carrying around 50 pounds of shopping then you will ache all over at the end of the day, and the same thing is going to happen if you suddenly go braless). Try going without for an hour a day, for at least a month. And if the pain subsides then slowly increase the hours. At the very least, make sure your bra is well fitted.

[thene]

ahahaha, Z is more of a nerd for well-fitted bras than anyone else I know, so.

[khronos_keeper]

For some reason like half of your entries never show up on my friends page, so I'm sorry I'm late to comment.

Also fun random fact re: wedding rings. When I was in Korea, many married people didn't wear wedding rings. I think a lot of it is due to the fact that the majority of the country is still Korean Buddhist, or follow some version of the national religion, and Christianity never really took off until the mid 20th century.

So wedding rings were never really a big thing, especially because when you met someone for the first time, one of their three questions were, "Are you married?" Whereas in the West this would be seen as kind of a rude question, it's totally not over there, because they need to know so they know how to socially address you and how formal/informal they can be.

In conclusion, I think it's kind of rude for those near-strangers to be commenting on your wedding ring status, because a.) they're probably not Korean, and b.) it's not their fucking business.

[thene]

Are wedding rings specifically linked to Christianity? Marriage was a secular rather than religious institution until very recently, really - just the last few hundred years. So I figured it was more about Western culture than about Christianity per se.

I really DON'T like jewellery that much, but wedding rings creep me out a bit on top of that. I think most people seem to forget what that whole shebang of customs MEAN because they gradually became gender-neutral very recently; but my family were a bunch of relics so I grew up knowing wedding rings were only for women, not men. It's like the Miss/Mrs thing...uhhh no, I don't want to use signifiers to show random male strangers (it is only men who ever ask! women never care! rings exist solely for the benefit of men!) whether I'm sexually available or not; I am not comfortable with that. I am a fucking Ms and I ain't wearing no rings. Engagement rings are STILL a gendered tradition and their history is amazingly creepy - they are allll about purchasing a pledge of virginity - and I'm stunned at how tolerated they are by feminists. Wedding rings have at least been improved somewhat, though I still don't get why they get a total pass rather than ever being questioned much.

ETA: more here.