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IT'S OKAY GUIZE there is a good sci-fi movie out now and it's Cloud Atlas.
So good I don't even know what to say about it. I haven't seen a new film anything like this good in at least two and a half years and this one is better. It is unbelievably full of stuff and time, has the best scene transitions I've ever seen, the central conceit - six different stories in which a bunch of actors each play several roles that vary across age, race and gender - works astonishingly well, the pacing is perfect, the tension is perfect, I loved almost everyone, there are boys kissing and Asian Lady RoboJesus, and by the end I wanted to hug everything ;_;
And then Chris said it has, what, a 55 on MetaCritic? Oh my god, these are the same dumbasses who thought Looper was good. (I would like to reiterate what a sack of sexist shit Looper is.) No. I know, I have a tendency to love gratuitously ambitious story structures & themes more than anything ever but this is really good and the only consistent complaint any of us had was that we could have done with subtitles for some of the more mumbly/esoteric characters. So see this, but you might thank yourself for going to a closed captioning screening, whatever, it deserves your love and money.
So good I don't even know what to say about it. I haven't seen a new film anything like this good in at least two and a half years and this one is better. It is unbelievably full of stuff and time, has the best scene transitions I've ever seen, the central conceit - six different stories in which a bunch of actors each play several roles that vary across age, race and gender - works astonishingly well, the pacing is perfect, the tension is perfect, I loved almost everyone, there are boys kissing and Asian Lady RoboJesus, and by the end I wanted to hug everything ;_;
And then Chris said it has, what, a 55 on MetaCritic? Oh my god, these are the same dumbasses who thought Looper was good. (I would like to reiterate what a sack of sexist shit Looper is.) No. I know, I have a tendency to love gratuitously ambitious story structures & themes more than anything ever but this is really good and the only consistent complaint any of us had was that we could have done with subtitles for some of the more mumbly/esoteric characters. So see this, but you might thank yourself for going to a closed captioning screening, whatever, it deserves your love and money.
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This film will not be getting my love or money because the yellowface is such a dealbreaker for me. I feel heartsick at how bad it looks and what it represents. To rephrase a friend, when a company would rather spend lots of money to digitally alter someone's race instead of hiring Asian actors, they're really keeping segregation-era practices going. It's a shame, cos I heard the book did some interesting things with its narrative.
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I will say, there were two respects in which the white characters playing Korean roles were different from those others (eg. Doona Bae and Halle Berry both playing white women in various scenes); firstly that they were more major plot roles, whereas the other acts of racebending were generally for minor characters, and secondly that I felt like the makeup/photoshopping involved was more extreme, though that most of those characters were cyborgs obviously added to that. But the central casting anarchy was very, very much part of what the film was trying to do - having the same people's genders, ages, races and sexual orientations flicker across the storyline; it was a deliberate and integral part of what the film was doing, definitely not something done 'instead of hiring Asian actors'. If you hate it, hate it because they did it on purpose; it is not a casual slight.
I've heard the book and the film did the narrative differently; the book bifurcated five of the six stories but otherwise told them sequentially whereas the film cut them all into ribbons and spliced them together, which took some amazing work with the pacing but it came off really well, imo.
ETA: I was just thinking some more about whether Somni's story could have been handled much differently, not least because there obviously were a couple of inhibitions about casting; none of the actresses ever played men, and none of black actors were ever cast outside their race or gender (whereas the only other major cast member who never played outside their race or gender was Tom Hanks; everyone else got bent one way or another). So, there were four plot-significant Asian characters who were played by white men, plus other white cast members took minor Asian roles in that setting (and two black cast members were also in Somni's story - I actually can't remember if Halle Berry's role in this story was racebent or not as it was very minor, but Keith David's character wasn't Asian). Afaik all those four characters were explicitly Korean (I'd have to read the book to be certain, but Somni at one point called the ruling-class characters 'purebloods' and the slum areas/rebel holdouts in Seoul were the only places we saw any non-Asian characters, so the implication was that the ruling class in that setting were all Korean.) Given the way the film was using recurring actors, they could have reserved the white & black cast members to that part of Somni's story (and thereby had more Asian actors playing non-Asian characters elsewhere, as the Asian actresses did) but only one or two of them would have even had speaking roles in Somni's story, which would have been an odd shift of balance compared to the recurrence of major actors in the rest of the intermingled stories. tl;dr I think this was partially inevitable given the premise of recurrence across boundaries, though having any male Asian cast members would have caused a measurable improvement (which could be said of a very large percentage of Western-made films).
I guess what it comes down to is the premise itself - I gather the book has it that the six main characters - two women of colour, and four white men, one of whom is gay - are all the same person, and in the film they decided to go with six different protagonist actors but lots of other roleswitching instead. That four of the six stories explicitly address race or ethnicity made it an issue that they couldn't dodge around eg. by doing what most movies do and having an all-white setting. They could definitely have done better but I don't think they could have done perfect and when it comes to making stuff I generally hold that perfect is the enemy of done.
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I'm not going into the artistic reasons because I have not seen the movie or read the book, and further, whatever reasons they have are irrelevant to me. It turns into arguing about intentions (e.g., deliberate choice vs casual slight, the directorial considerations that kyrias speaks of below), which cannot be proven. So I judge on the consequences of white people playing Asian characters (and other POC), which to my mind are, generally:
- Adding to a long history of yellowface
- (stealing from text in the above link) Non-Asian bodies controlling what it means to be Asian on screen and stage, particularly in lead/major roles
- Asian actors/directors/screenwriters etc. not getting work and/or being typecast into stereotypical roles (after all, white people can play us better than we play ourselves!) - there are few opportunities for multifaceted representation on our own terms
- Shaping how media consumers learn about race etc and how we POC feel about ourselves
- Perpetuating harmful stereotypes that are dehumanising and have real consequences for Asian people (e.g., violence, loss of work, acts of racism, self-esteem issues, etc)
I have no smart arguments. But I do think it's valid to critique and not support something because it contributes to my own oppression and to the real oppression of others, regardless of the intent with which a work is made (i.e., sure, it may be a deliberate and integral part of what the film was doing, but the effect is still the above). Perfect may be the enemy of done, but it is still valid to push for "better" when the track record has been so poor.
As a side note, I can't help but think of Doctor Who and his many reincarnations in different actors' bodies, or of child actors portraying their older counterparts - continuity is provided, and very little confusion ensues because it's clear in other ways (physical resemblance, similar verbal and nonverbal mannerisms) that it is the same spirit.
Kyrias wondered about other Asians' perspectives on this, and I'm about to post some links in response to their comment if you're interested.
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I think part of my struggle is not just the consciousness of oppression and the consciousness of wrong, but sometimes I choose to disregard those thoughts for the sake of ...dare I say, art.
And this is where my privilege comes in, both my privilege and part of the tangled roots of being Chinese in a setting where the worst I can usually be is the "model minority". For most people this isn't something they can push aside, even temporarily, and I wonder at myself that I can.
Cloud Atlas was stunning, and I don't regret seeing it. I might have regretted, slightly, not seeing it -- from an artistic standpoint. And I waver, between wanting to support these directors who took something and went to the line with it and feeling like I'm supporting the sort of mindset that allows yellowface. I was originally going to considering seeing it again at the theaters, but my thought has been shaken.
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I always figured this was pretty common - god knows there's enough sexist artworks I love, not least because there are never enough non-sexist artworks, and the situation is so much worse when it comes to homophobia that more often than not it's a choice between problematic or nothing. We pick our battles with our cultures.
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The one thing that really dragged me out of my enjoyment for the film was the yellowface. In fact, I originally didn't want to go because of the yellowface, much the way I'm hardcore boycotting Avatar; the last airbender -- but Chris told me that there mitigating factors, I don't remember now what, and I went.
I am wondering between artistic license and yellowface, blackface, whiteface, and all the intersections thereof. Since a lot of the movie is set in other times and places not Asian, would it have made sense for them to hire more Azn characters, had them put on whiteface, and did the movie that way -- I don't know. Another little intersection here (personal and possibly not of any import to you) is that I had a hell of a lousy time understanding the Korean actress's English because of the accent and I wonder how authentic or even understandable the movie would have been if there were more Azn actors. Yes, that previous comment makes me a terrible person. It's just the things that surface when I'm in the theater and I don't understand nearly 1/5 of what is going on because the language escapes me. For the record, the future-talk was completely unintelligible as well, so maybe the simple solution is just closed caption. And does the random bending of everyone's race make it better -- I don't know.
And I wonder if this intersects back into the sort of segregation between the Azn movie star world and the Hollywood and Bollywood movie star world where the directors legitimately felt like they didn't know of any amazing, awesome Azn characters to play whiteface? Or did they simply worry that having Azns play whiteface would turn off their white audience? Or was it that they simply wanted, for an already extremely fringe movie, to draw the audience in with big name stars? I don't know, and I don't know if those considerations are even "ok".
The one thing I do think was amazing, was that they had the 6 main characters slide between lives and stories and it was absolutely necessary for them to be the same person, to see that continuity. I don't think it would have done at all for them to hire Azn actors simply for the Azn parts. I could be wrong, but I feel there might have been a loss of the feeling of continuity. On the other hand, the yellowface was SO WEIRD that I didn't even really see them as humans, they just all looked like Vulcans, and that really dragged me out of the movie.
I actually would like to hear more Azns weigh in on this, who have read the book and seen the movie, and see if they can justify what was done. Even in the name of artistic license.
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just to repeat what I said over IM: I am not sure if any of these were considerations, because there were only three big name Hollywood types in this (Halle Berry, Hugo Weaving, and Tom Hanks, plus a few up-and-comers, and arguably Hugh Grant but his roles were all fairly minor and I feel like if any cast member could easily have been wholesale replaced by someone of a different race, it would be him), and some of the major cast members seem very much not Hollywood - Doona Bae and James D'Arcy especially. If they could reach out to those people, they could have reached out to a few Asian men, not least, say, the one who played a major role in their previous film. And I don't know that they were shy of turning off the audience, although it is notable that Somni's story is the only one with major-role racebending; audiences may be more accepting of genderflips than racial ones because we're more comfortable with where genderflips fit in our artistic traditions, I figure. (ETA: it may be notable that all the genderflipped characters were British women, and that it was in the comedic strand. This shit is panto.) But anyway; racebending was something they were deliberately doing, but within guidelines...which were then thrown out the window for Somni's story. Honestly not sure what would have been the best thing to do overall, given that two of the settings were explicitly mostly white and one was explicitly mostly Korean.
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I share the same reaction to the total alienness of the yellowface in this film. I cannot think of any Asian people that actually look like that, and find the "non-human/cyborg = Asian" trope rather insulting, not to mention just plain old. I'm of course leaving aside intentions - even if the digital alterations were more convincingly done, it would still have negative, racist consequences.
Since a lot of the movie is set in other times and places not Asian, would it have made sense for them to hire more Azn characters, had them put on whiteface, and did the movie that way -- I don't know.
The other way I see it is that they could keep their white actors and have other (Asian) actors portraying their other selves in the Korean part of the story. I know you mentioned that it may not have worked, but I do think that having similar looks and mannerisms across two actors can go a long way - I gave the example to thene about Doctor Who (in case you're unfamiliar: across it's many seasons, different white British actors play the titular time-travelling alien Doctor) and of child actors playing an older character's younger selves. I am also imagining all the fan-casting memes I've seen where fans racebend white characters into POC; the spirit of the character often shines through. Also, weren't the core group of characters portrayed by Black actors in another part of the movie?
Black/First nations/Desi people elsewhere have talked about black/red/brown-face and the real world consequences those representations have on them -- so I'll leave that and link to other East-Asian voices on the film/yellowface that I've come across:
- The Media Action Network for Asian Americans wrote about the film. Totally side-eye their pitting yellowface against blackface though - the latter is still prominent!
- Racebending's take, albeit based on the movie trailers at that point
- Aforementioned friend Bankuei had two short comments on Tumblr: 1 and 2
- Abraham Lim: Let's talk Cloud Atlas and yellowface
- Comment by Nicole Mango on Racebending's FB page. tl;dr: “why is the context of the movie privileged over the context of our society where Asian Americans are continued to be discriminated against?”
- Minh-hat T. Pham talks more generally about yellowface except in the modelling industry in Unintentionally eating the Other
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No? - there is no 'core group of characters'. There's a core pool of actors for all six of the stories, several of whom are black, but very few characters appear in more than one of the six stories, and no one appears in more than two.
and find the "non-human/cyborg = Asian" trope rather insulting
There were people with visible cyborg implants in both of the two chronologically last stories, and they were of varied ethnicities. The one who got the most screentime was a black woman. The replicants were all Asian women, though - they only appeared in the Korean story and existed to serve the 'pureblood' Koreans.
I know you mentioned that it may not have worked, but I do think that having similar looks and mannerisms across two actors can go a long way
The same actor having different looks and mannerisms as they played different characters was the purpose here. Hugo Weaving played four very different villains, for example, one of whom was female. Also, the idea of four Asian actors appearing in only one-sixth of the whole story and having to be somehow mimicking certain white actors (who got way more total screentime) while doing so...? That doesn't sound like an unproblematic solution to anything.
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There were people with visible cyborg implants in both of the two chronologically last stories, and they were of varied ethnicities. The one who got the most screentime was a black woman. The replicants were all Asian women, though - they only appeared in the Korean story and existed to serve the 'pureblood' Koreans.
I was talking about the non-humanness of the digital yellowface; it was distressing to me to know that various people in the production process thought that all one had to do to make someone "look Asian" was to make their eyes all squinty and change the caste of the skin. And ohhhh re. replicants. More broadly, I will be pleased for the time I see more Asian people in Western movies that just get to be human, not cyborgs or some other caricature, not just background filler. Getting to fall in love, and not with a white person.
The same actor having different looks and mannerisms as they played different characters was the purpose here. [...] Also, the idea of four Asian actors appearing in only one-sixth of the whole story and having to be somehow mimicking certain white actors (who got way more total screentime) while doing so...?
If the point was to have different looks and mannerisms, then it sounds like there is no excuse to not include chromatic actors as opposed to white ones. What the Cloud Atlas team chose to do in this respect seems uncreative. Of course it would not be as simple as a straight up mimic (which I was not suggesting), but finding ways to convey that this is the same soul in a different body. I think I've been spoiled by some of the Korean drama series I've been watching lately where body-swapping (same soul, different body) has been part of the plot; with skilled actors and good writing, it's super effective.
I will bow out of this conversation because I am beginning to feel tired. Thanks for the discussion.
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Mm, there not being any male asians in the cast at all was both bad and weird, esp as just off the top of my head I could name two who the directors have worked with before.
Thank you for chiming in, and also for all your links <3
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I haven't got round to reading the novel, but it was widely praised. And I'm visiting the library today, so I might see if it's there.
FWIW I have a soft spot for Gattaca, even though the premiss is impossible.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-29 06:11 pm (UTC)(link)~yoey
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-29 10:36 pm (UTC)(link)I didn't get a job for which I was one of only three applicants and STAS is looking like it'll end up about 20K too short (and I don't think I can play the thriller card). These things are non-ideal. How are you other than cinematographically?
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idk, I am in a headslump mostly, hence relative lack of blogging. Trying to figure out how best to handle IRS education requirements so I can work in January - might be best to line the job up first, though I have found an online course for it that I would actually like to do. Fortunately enough people are having trouble with this stuff that I am getting recruitment spam on the email address that the IRS have for me. I'll be interested to see the long-term results of this slaying of the muppets, and in the short-term maybe I'll get paid more than usual.
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(Anonymous) 2012-10-31 12:47 pm (UTC)(link)Too short is... look, the "correct length", i.e. what American agents think is saleable (and there are so many more American agents than British ones), for an SF novel is between 80,000 words and 120,000 words. RD topped out at 134K, or 126K if I lopped off the last three chapters. Could have stood to do it for the first two of those, but I really wanted to keep the last. This is probably why I can't find an agent. It has those structural issues I mentioned (and which I would still love you to look at if you have the time) but they're not a problem in the first three chapters.
STAS, at the moment, is nearly 40K at what I reckon (from a purely psychological standpoint) is two thirds of the way through. This equates to 60K when finished, i.e. around 20K too short to qualify as an SF novel. Of course, there are so many stages to go, including finishing the dratted first draft, and I have two action sequences still to write (among much other stuff), including a minimum of one flaming row between Calad and Aoife, and both those things can get longer than anticipated. Also I've currently managed to complicate Connor's life to an outrageous degree and I may not have unravelled all the knots with what I think is going to be the solution - there's such a thing as too elegant an outcome. Still. 20K or so too short. And that's before editing, which slims a book, or should.
There are other factors - for instance I really don't know if I have included enough of the world: think I may be about to write a 500-word sideline that achieves nothing except an expansion of Logan's character and a smidgeon of worldbuilding - and like I said, complications have been added and can become more annoying if I need them to. Also the "thriller card" - thrillers can get away with being shorter than other flavours of books in the same sub-genre - it depends on so many factors, including the precise type of thriller. Idk. I think I need to get it to 80K completed, though, and I've no clue how I'm going to do that. It's as if I've suddenly developed "compact" and I don't know what to do with it. :/
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Did you like it?
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About yellowface: I totes thought the "purebloods" had been affected by some weird deformity or wasting disease which is why the main "Asian" guys looked so weird, and that the servers were made to look perfect because the general pureblood population no longer looked like that, not that they were white actors trying to portray asians....and i did find it really jarring when suomi was white at the end, 'couldn't figure out if I was supposed to be able to tell she was asian or if I was supposed to assume she was playing a white character. The race-play was all very confusing.
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hahahaha that is a good theory esp regarding Hugo Weaving's Vulcan forehead. It's odd, Doona Bae as Tilda looked super-weird, but she looked fine as the nameless Mexican lady and Halle Berry looked awesome as Jocasta... Idk, Tilda's colouring was just WEIRD. I couldn't work out where they were - they were talking about 'going back east' and it was the Pacific Journal so at first I was wondering if Tilda was an Asian character too because I thought they might be in Japan or something, but I don't think she was o__0 CANNIBAL HUGH GRANT remains the best character.